Political Secretary Mick Kelly Meeting Transcript

Mick: So do we have everyone on? Can we see everybody, please? Tequila Sunset: Sure. How’s it going y’all? Mick: Good! Oh, well, there’s a there’s a friend I have not seen for a while. How are you? Alpharius: I’m tired. Mick: You’re tired. Alright. Well, not everyone gets to see me and there’s good ways to see me and bad ways to see me. But you’re seeing me this way, and I guess we’ll see what kind of way that is. But I think it should be, uh, I think I should be able to speak to your concerns if you’re, uh, I’ll certainly do my best to. So what do y’all wanna know? Alpharius: So what I would prefer to know, and I’m not gonna speak on everyone, I’m just gonna speak for me. Mick: Uh-huh. Alpharius: As you already know, I’ve been in this organization, half my life, and I was told a very specific, line, narrative, approach in 2014. And, like, Dan was not, a firsthand account witness.

He told me what he knew from whoever told him. You would be closer to, like, you know, what happened there. So I wanted to just ask very plainly, very truthfully, very honestly, the totality. As much detail as can be provided because how this has made me think of, like, everything that has happened. I just want to know the 10 yards. And that’s just my first -

Mick: Alright. Sure. It’s not - none of this is a huge secret, by the way. And the video that the wrecker did, [the VA’s name], who I certainly know well, piece of trash, I’m still angry about that. I’m still angry about it. It’s absolute garbage.

So here’s the facts, and there’s gonna be limits to what I’m gonna say. And the reason is because, you know, when we have people who do wrong, particularly people who violate the policy on sexual assault and harassment, we investigate. And the reason we’re able to investigate is people know that there’s some degree of observation of their privacy within that, you know, so we don’t give up, uh, so we don’t hand out the details of the accusations.But in this case, in Florida, by the way, there was never a complaint, not one. The person involved did not want a complaint and did not bring one forward ever. Hence, there was, uh, it was very it was difficult to look into, but there wasn’t a sexual assault either. And that’s actually what happened. The person who was kind of at the center of this didn’t want stuff done with it, didn’t want a lot of noise around it, and, uh, whatever. We proceeded accordingly. There was no complaint. And, you know, I’ll add some points though to kind of contextualize it. You know? In the adult world, there’s all sorts of things that go on, including relationships that are covert. And I think we all know that. And that being the case, again, we looked into the matter, I think we acted in principled way, and I’m actually good with it entirely. And I actually I do know the details of what happened. Alpharius: Yeah. Could you… because there was some, and you did say that, you know, you wouldn’t share everything because of the privacy. Right? Like Yeah. Could we go into it, please? Mick: What do you need to know? Alpharius: So for me - Mick: So there was no there was no assault. It didn’t happen. There did - an assault did not take place. Alpharius: So nothing at all happened? Mick: I didn’t say that. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: But I said I said there wasn’t - I said there wasn’t an assault. Okay. And, I’m saying that, the person most directly involved who kind you know, did not want to bring forward any complaint and did not. And hence, if there had been complaints, I think you probably know, we, we actually deal with them in an extremely rigorous way. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: I think you’re aware of that from Texas. Alpharius: I’m aware of that from Texas and Utah. But Yeah. Mick: We do, we are rigorous about this. But in that case, there wasn’t one. Alpharius: So what did happen? Right? Because and do you want me to contextualize what Dan said to me? Because I don’t know - Mick: Tell me what Dan said to you, and I’ll tell you if it’s true or not. Alpharius: Okay. So what Dan said to me, this would have been November when all this shit is blowing up in communism 101. Right? People may not be aware, but it was like some fucking Facebook group, right? Dan was an admin. It blows up there. I was originally involved in SDS at the time. This was not an SDS started by any members of FRSO. It was just kind of cooperated into, like, you know, friendly forces, [Arlington SDS Member B], [Arlington SDS Member], [Arlington SDS Member C], etc. And Dan tells me specifically, like, three points. I could bring up the text, but I wanna somewhat paraphrase so that I’m not just waiting to bring up the texts, that there’s four overall points. The first point is that, like, it’s still an investigation, right? It is being investigated. So the purpose of - and to give more context, like the SDS in question, my former SDS, wanted to put out a statement. Because at this time, different SDSs, depending on it, are sometimes putting out statements asking for clarification, statements, information, right? So he’s telling me there’s an investigation going on right now, and it would and - he wanted - I wasn’t successful, and I do have some disagreements of how he was trying to force me to basically struggle as I’m the only lone FRSO person. And if I go like, oh, yeah. You know, FRSO didn’t do anything. It kinda outs me, right? As like because this is a particular situation of either I remain in that SDS or I’m kicked out as, like, a rape apologist. Mick: Mhmm. Alpharius: That’s the first thing. The second thing, somewhat similar to what you said, but somewhat not similar, is that he said that, you know, no one likes Dustin Ponder. If Dustin Ponder did anything, he’d be removed, that Dan advocated on removing Dustin Ponder even. I don’t know the truth of that. That’s just what he said. So that, you know, it’s the character assessment of, like, Dustin Ponder was not like someone who was so valued by the organization as to keep it. Mick: That’s, there’s certainly a truth to that. So, there was an investigation. So, Dan, so far is two to two on telling you the truth. Alpharius: So then the third… let me see if I try to remember correctly. The third point, and this is where it gets different, is that… so he said two different things. The first thing is that there were attempts to reach out to the victim, and the victim or alleged victim, whatever we wanna say, right, did not wanna respond. But also, there is this specific, line or position that, like, [VA] was also, like, pushing the victim to not talk to the organization and instead, have the organization speak to her. That was some of the the more confusing things. Sometimes he would say this and sometimes he would just, in the Facebook posts. And then the final thing is that, you know, with in regards to the very fact of, like, the investigation is that no one knows anything. Right? It’s just that there is something that happened. Right? It’s something revolving Dustin and someone, and that there are attempts to investigate it. They need to be meted out, and SDS is probing and prodding. That’s what Dan originally told me circa 2014. And to give further context when Tlacuache approached you during the thing in LA. Mick: The Summit Against Deportations. Alpharius: There you go. That, you had told him that actually, in spite of the, you know, difficulties of talking with the victim and that, like, you know, it’s given mail, it’s left unread. Right? That actually somehow - and correct me if this is either a misinterpretation or miscommunication because it’s Tlacuache telling me, not you telling me, that Tlacuache said that you said to them that Dustin was proven innocent of any particular anything that particularly happened in that case. That you would quote, be willing to put your life savings and eat shit over it. Mick: No. I probably, uh, I probably said I would bet my car. I also probably didn’t use the phrase proven innocent. I would certainly say there was poor behavior among all involved, it was probably more than two - it was more than two people. And, you know, that being said, yeah, there absolutely there absolutely wasn’t really a case here. Yeah. I would bet my car on it. I would bet my life on it. There wasn’t a case here as far as I know of what the investigation showed. Obviously, I wasn’t there on the evening in question. So all I need - all I have done is talk with people who do know. Alpharius: And to ask the people you did talk to, it would have been like, Fern and Steff. Right? Mick: Would have been Steff. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: Steff was always in charge of, investigating these things for the group. Alpharius: Okay. Because, like, on the one hand, like, if it’s not assault… because the main thing that, in looking back on some of the things that has, like, somewhat concerned me, and that’s why, like, I, you know, I personally would have preferred one on one, but we are where we are. It’s a question of, so, what did happen? I know [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre], very infamous [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre], posted stuff, right, at that time regarding sanctions, right? And I just wanted to know if you can give a timeline or something of, like, you know, what had happened, what was the means of investigation. Because at least from what [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre], who used to be with us and has, issues of their own, that, like, [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre]’s trying to say that, well, he was sanctioned and he violated the sanctions and, you know, he was able to get off scot free. I don’t know because not only was I not there, the email chain that he posted, right, it’s clipped off. But, like, you know, when we say that, like, there’s nothing happened, but there’s sanctions, something happened. And, like, it was taken serious enough to put sanctions, which is good. And I just wanted to, like, know a bit more of that if that’s fine. Mick: Yeah. And now I’m gonna tell you I’m just doing my best. You know, this is we’re talking about things nine years ago. And obviously, there are no notes on this topic, you know, so I mean, as you would kind of expect. So, and actually, if you kind of listen pretty carefully to what I’m saying, there’s actually kind of a there’s a kind of a narrative here, which I’m because I brought up the issue several times of issues of covert relationships. Alpharius: Assume I’m dumb. I might be dumb. Mick: So I’m saying that in the adult world, there are people who engage for a number of reasons in covert relationships. They date and they don’t tell anybody that that’s what’s going on. Alright? Alpharius: Oh, it’s like cheating. Mick: So I’m just saying that happens in the world. I’m not gonna say if it happened in this case. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: So, anyways, you have a lot going on in the world. So my recollection of the whole matter is that while the investigation was going on, indeed, Dustin was suspended. And we did keep him at arm’s length for a bit, but when we actually got to the facts of the matter, there wasn’t a case, and he was brought back. And that’s my memory of it. And later, he left the organization. He was a person who just quite frankly wasn’t a good communist. And, uh, but in terms of that incident, he had he hadn’t done something worthy of being kicked out. And that’s just the facts. You know? And yeah. I mean, I’m giving it to you the best I can, without, going through blow by blow what happened in the room. You know? Alpharius: I understand. Hold on. Because I wanna ingrain everything. Mick: So There was there was no there was no cover up. It actually would have been a lot easier to get rid of to get rid of him, by the way, than it was to carry him. He wasn’t that valuable of a person to kind of go all out. You know? It just didn’t make sense. And we, if you recall, at the time we were under a ferocious attack and we weren’t gonna let our enemies determine our membership. It was kind of it was an ideological point. And, again, there just wasn’t the case there to throw the dude out. Alpharius: And I wanted to… it may be difficult, but I just wanted to ask is, like, when you say, like, you know, that there wasn’t a case, and this is, like, the thing that kind of rung interesting to me because it’s, like, to my interpretation, and I’m always ready to admit to be wrong or, like, that just - because I was mostly 2014, 2015, so, unfortunately, right, I was brought in when all this shit’s coming up. I would not want to do it again because it was having to do with a lot. Other comrades had to deal with it worse, like in Florida at ground zero. But do you know when it went from, investigation to there’s, you know, like, the investigation is completed. Right? There there’s no more need to, like, have him suspended to bring him back. Because I know that, you know, he left for whatever reason. Tlacuache said that, that you said it was due to, like, political disagreements. Andy said that, like, he ran on, and he didn’t say it like this exactly. But given the fact that he’s involved with, like, 512 and one of the co-founders of United 512, it’s like a reform caucus that he ran for, like, office and that he lost and that he left over that. I don’t know if it’s exactly like that. It could be more nuanced. It could be exactly like that. I don’t know Dustin. He’s been on my Facebook friends for years, but I haven’t had the pleasure or displeasure of the man. Mick: Is he still on Facebook? I think he’s unfriended me. Alpharius: He’s on Facebook. Mick: Okay. Interesting. So no. There’s no… that time frame, there’s no real relationship there. You know, basically, the investigation, as I recall, it didn’t really take that long. I think I knew kind of I felt like I knew the full story within, like, four or five months. You know? Especially probably that was part of the problem is kinda knowing the full story. There wasn’t really the option of just kinda cutting our you know, basically, cutting our losses. It wasn’t the principled thing to do. It just wasn’t you know, people do something wrong, you throw them out. But in this case, there wasn’t there wasn’t something there to throw him out with. And he had quite a sojourn after that. Alpharius: Sojourn? Mick: Yeah. Sojourn. He went to he’s up in New York, and I think after his New York experience, he came back and reconnected with some people and then ran for office. It’s my recollection of it. Alpharius: And then I know that apparently you know [VA] Delilah, or the displeasure of knowing [VA]. Mick: I am well aware of who she is. Yes. I, keep track of her. Alpharius: Could you tell me? Because I knew of that video for years. I only recently saw it. So could you, like, you know because that’s the one thing… let me pull back a bit, for maybe further context. So this is what I know just from context clues. [VA] was a part of SDS. They were doing anti rape culture stuff. Mick: Mhm. Alpharius: Very friendly with Sol, Chrisley, etc. And then something happens. Maybe [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre] contacts her or something. And then immediately, like, it’s from zero to a hundred. And then the whole shit with November, etc, etc. It is it’s specifically just the wonder of, like, from your knowledge of them or her, I don’t know their pronouns. I’ll just use both until I’m told otherwise. Like, I understand, and I was told, like, you know, they’re wreckers, they’re trying to take over the SDS, but I’m more so interested in the fact of, like, you know, just what was their involvement? How did they know the information? Again, like, I can make the impression of just [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre], but in case there’s more, right, I don’t wanna just go off of impressions. And, like, when she confronted Steff during that International Women’s Day and asked Steff, like, a very particular question, that’s the most like, the major question I have. Because, like, you know, everything else can, like, you know, be talked on, but that’s like, my major question. I think you know where I’m kinda going and like why- Mick: No. Actually, I’m missing the major question. I mean, [VA] was a wrecker. She’s still an enemy of our organization and tries to throw sticks in our spokes every once in a while. She had her own group for a while called the Orlando Workers League. She actually had a tie in with the American Party of Labor for a bit there too, but I think that didn’t suit her as well. But, anyway. Alpharius: So the question is like- Mick: The question- Alpharius: Oh, go ahead. Mick: No, what’s the question? I don’t know where you’re going with it, I haven’t watched the video for years, so. Alpharius: So, like, [VA] approaches Steff back and forth, yada yada. The main thing is [VA] asked Steff, wasn’t he accused of, sexual assault prior? Mick: Oh, I can answer that. No. Alpharius: No? Mick: No. Unequivocal no. Alpharius: Okay… because, at least in the video… Mick: No. Alpharius: …that, like, Steff takes a minute and goes, yeah. That, like, specifically that there was a previous accusation, the organization investigated it, meaning Steff investigated it, and, like, it was credible. It may not have been sexual assault. It may have been some other misconduct, but were there any other allegations prior that you know of? Mick: Well, certainly. So, they were a friend group. And without getting into all of the… yeah, I think there might have been, like, a rent payment issue that divided the Tampa comrades for a bit where somebody didn’t pay their fair share of the rent. You know, but there- it was stuff like that. You know? I don’t remember any sex case against Dustin. I would know too. That would be that would be like a big fucking deal if there had been. Because if there had been, it would have actually decided the second one. But that’s just not true that there was a previous case. Alpharius: And do you know, like, why Steff would like… because that’s the main thing, right, of, like, Steff saying yes. That’s like, that kind of set up a lot, for me. Mick: Yeah. You know, actually it’s kinda funny. I actually talked to her about the whole thing today because we’re both kinda struggling to remember it. And I think she would tell you exactly what I’m telling you. No, there was no previous accusation, there just wasn’t. She was- she was in a tough spot there. She went down there to help out a group that was under a lot of pressure during IWD. You may or may not know Steff is actually my best friend, and I think what happened to her there was terrible. She was ambushed, she was embarrassed. She was, you know, whatever, being hit with motherfuckers on a, on a, doing a video hit on her. And, yeah, I think she actually mentioned today she probably would’ve handled it different, you know? i.e. not engaged with them at all, you know? But, you know, whatever. It was- it was a very, it was a very difficult experience, and it’s one that’s hard to handle with grace. Yeah. You know? Alpharius: Okay. Mick: Yeah. I think, I think what, I think what happened to her there was terrible, and I think, uh, [VA]’s behavior was awful too. And it was cop like behavior, quite frankly. Alpharius: And then um… okay. Because, like, you know, as you know, Mick, I was more or less brought in through, like, Gregory Lucero. So I had to the pleasure or displeasure of the experience with that man. And, you know- Mick: We have had we have had some characters. I’ll give you that. You know? Alpharius: Yeah. We should. Hopefully, we stop having characters of that caliber. Mick: Me too. Alpharius: The because, you know- Mick: But he the only thing- oh, go ahead. I’m sorry. Alpharius: Cause like, you know. It’s like, the thing with Gregory Lucero and, like, the Florida thing and, like, me being thrown at this because I was very much of the well, perhaps the now incorrect line, of, you know, that, the investigation was stonewalled. So you’re saying that the investigation was like - snaps like that? Like- Mick: It was like four months. I knew what happened within four months, four or five months. It was pretty quick. And I forget the exact agency, like, of how I came to know. I do know at that time, we were tending not to use telephones. We’re actually tending to do direct things, you know, just because of the whole security environment that existed at the time. You know? And I think this all happened right about, what, 2014 or something like that. So we would’ve still had the Carlos case going on too, probably. Alpharius: Yeah. 2014, at least when it becomes public. And that’s kind of the main thing is, like, at least according to the implication with, like, [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre] and the sanctions, like, this actually takes place in 2013. Mick: Alright. Alpharius: When Andy came over, and this was again, it was kinda like a whiplash to me being there in the trenches of, like, that- that nothing happened. And then it was brought up in 2014 when, you know, there was there was at least conflicting statements from that, from, like, you know, Gregory Lucero and Dan that, like, maybe there was something that happened and it was complicated or there was nothing that happened, and main thing to take away is, don’t talk about it. If people wanna talk about it, they have to specifically talk to Dan. The thing that we did is that also anyone who was brought into the organization for, I think, three to four years, we talked about the Florida thing, which, you know, could have been an error, could have been a good thing, lots of issues. But, this is a lot of thoughts from me, and I don’t wanna jibber jabber yabber. But, you know, because this is a conversation. It is a two way street. You know? I guess, like, um, like, what are your thoughts to, like, you know, be here? Because this is, relatively, you could say, old news, but it’s being brought up again. And I’m here, and Tequila Sunset is here, and Andy is here, and the Dallas DO is here. And- Mick: Sure. I’m quite frankly, I’m very I’m extremely surprised actually that, actually after a decade, or maybe more as you were indicating, that, this would, come up again. I wanna say one thing in terms of our policy on sexual harassment and such. We enforce it rigorously and vigorously, and I’m actually proud of the way that it’s dealt with.

On the issue of Dustin in Florida, I’m actually proud of that too. We did the we did the principled thing even at, uh, even at great loss.

And furthermore, I’ll tell you the truth, I was never a fan of Dustin. Motherfucker left me sitting on a street corner in Harlem without a place to stay for quite a few hours one night while he was out drinking. You know? So I’m not I’m not on part of his fan base at all. There just wasn’t grounds to throw the man out or punish him.

We looked into it. We know what happened. And I believe to this day that had we sanctioned him, threw him out, really, that it would have been an injustice. It might have served him right because he was an asshole, but it wouldn’t have been for what he was accused of. And that’s for sure. So. Alpharius: And I suppose final thing on- Mick: And actually, even the phrase even the phrase when I say accused, he was- he was accused by [VA] and Company. He was, uh, he was he was not accused by, let’s call the person the victim just because there has to be a way to discuss the matter. Alpharius: Yeah. Mick: That person, 100%, didn’t want shit done with this. Alpharius: Could you elaborate then on, like and it’s a bit hard again. But because, like, in 2013, he’s sanctioned, and [VA]’s bringing this up in 2014. Maybe [VA]’s bringing it up in 2013. Mick: Yeah, I can’t- Alpharius: But everyone looks happy hokey dokey in 2013 in Tampa, and then they don’t. But that’s life, isn’t it? Like, that’s kind of the main thing is, like, because there are sanctions. So who is the original original complainant? I know with [VA], the thing of the, being told, like, she’s the self appointed victim’s advocate. Was she ever in contact with the victim, she or [Former Tampa FRSO Cadre], or just…they were proclaiming it? or you don’t know? It’s fine to say- Mick: Yeah. It’s I mean, I certainly probably did know at one point. It’s again, it’s not like I’m working from notes or something like that from eleven years ago. You know? But one thing I will say is, yeah, I feel pretty comfortable about that I know, uh, I know what happened and that, and I don’t think we’ve done anyone an injustice. And by the way, as a communist, that kind of thing is important to me. So, anyway. As you might know. Alpharius: Yeah. Because that does… it answers some of my questions. And I guess just, you know, this is also preferably why I would have wanted to just talk to you one on one so that we could talk on other matters, in regards of how things could connect or disconnect. If you’re fine with that, it’s fine. If you’re not fine with that, it’s not fine. But- Mick: I’m fine with talking to you one on one. I mean, Tequila Sunset, you haven’t said anything. I mean, do you have any question? I by the way, I- I didn’t, like, necessarily- I’m just trying to be helpful here. There’s things that people actually need to know to be organizationally sound. I’m willing to do that. There’s things, obviously, that I’m not gonna do either. But, Tequila Sunset, do you feel good about this discussion, or is this answering your points? Or.. Tequila Sunset: I mean, the only thing that’s sort of confusing to me is that, you know, what Alpharius mentioned earlier, that there is the video where they confront Steff, and Steff said like, asked very directly, is this is Dustin’s first time around with sexual assault allegations or accusations? And Steff said it’s not his first time around. And then they ask, and those accusations are found to be truthful? And Steff said, Yes. And what you’re telling us is the opposite of what Steff is saying in that video. Mick: Yeah. Tequila Sunset: So you understand why that would be a little bit confusing. Mick: Yeah. And as I- as I said, you know, my analysis of it is, you know, I haven’t looked at the video in years. But, um… I certainly did watch it more than once when it came out. I feel very bad for what happened to her there and uh… whatever. And she was in a difficult a difficult spot. And when she… “Yeah” in that context, can have a lot of different meanings. So and, again, I’d have to go back and watch the video if I was gonna deconstruct it, but there wasn’t prior accusations against him. There’s problems. But, anyways there’s problems with a lot of the folks down there. They’re all young, and young people have problems. Alpharius: Because I do have… I do have other questions, some of which relate to Florida, some of which don’t. And I do want to take into consideration the time and scope and breadth of this. But, um… do you have any questions, Mick? Cause there are there are a lot of things in my head right now, and I’m trying to think of, like, particular ways to like- even this conversation, there were ways of, like, how it was, originally brought up and then was, like, redressed, but then re re redressed, that kind of, like, put me off base a bit. And it was just, I guess, like, the most neutral way is to say is, like, it was interesting. But- Mick: Well, let me let me just say this, and that is, as the political secretary of our organization, I try very, very hard to follow the channels that exist for communicating with people. I try very hard not to interfere in the lives of districts without actually going through the correct ways of doing it, which is basically my activities need to be approved by the Standing Committee, and then we operate through the person responsible for the city. Hence, that’s why Andy is here observing me. And not simply because he got the video, but he’s responsible for your city. And so anyways, so I told the SC that I was very willing to meet with folks to help clear up any misconceptions that existed. I did have a great deal of knowledge about the thing at the time. I still have a fair amount, probably more than anyone other than Steff. And so, yeah, I am glad to discuss things with anybody, but it really needs to be approved by Andy as the kind of the decider here. And I don’t think it’s necessarily entirely fair to him that, um… we certainly can speak on other matters here if it’s okay with Andy, but I’m mainly here to clear up this. You know? Alpharius: Yeah. That’s why I didn’t wanna, like, interject. And what I mean specifically, the manner of the conversation, there are two points on it. The first of which is that and Andy knows this. Andy may or may not have told you, but, like, it was specifically of just, like, you know, that originally, this was- talked to him of a conversation that, like, someone from the SC, you, we didn’t know it was you, but it’s you, was gonna be talking to myself and Tequila Sunset. And it then changed very particularly where I was told it was exclusively going to be Tequila Sunset and the manner of which of how it was discussed in, like, in the particular context was something that I didn’t, jive with. It was rectified, and it was made to, like, you know, anyone could participate. Other folks of the DC wanted to be on here, but then that changed. And, now we’re here. And if, again, if you wanna either clarify some of this stuff or want me to clarify, it’s fine. Mick: That certainly has a lot to do with me, but Andy has his hand up. He can certainly address it. Alpharius: Yeah. Andy: Yeah. The so, you know, when I visited, you know, what we had discussed was that you and Tequila Sunset had questions, you know, that weren’t answered by my visit and the information that I had. And so I would ask the SC about setting something else and having someone with more knowledge about it later. And then when we got around to scheduling it, I was communicating with the Dallas DO. You know, I think because of May Day coming up, my understanding was that it would be more convenient to do it after May Day, and so that’s what I was planning on. Then when we got to actually concretely scheduling it, the Dallas DO asked me if, you know, that there were other members of the DC were interested. And, you know, without really thinking about it, I was like, you know, sure. Let’s get it scheduled. You know, figure out who wants to, you know, what whatever. Let’s set a time. But I, you know, I didn’t consider that, you know, what was raised to the SC and decided on by the whole standing committee body to have someone speak with y’all, it the proposal was just with Alpharius and Tequila Sunset. And, yeah, so that, you know, that was my error in, you know, as, like, making an assumption or kind of not paying close attention to, you know, should this be just everybody who wants to? So that, what, that I hope, you know, hope that explains some of that. Alpharius: Yeah. Mick: Dallas DO, you have your hand up too? Dallas DO: No. I couldn’t hear Andy very well. I think your volume was a little low, but I didn’t wanna stop you from saying it. I could hear it. I just it was kinda low. But I can I can you know, I mean, I tried my best to communicate things that were said, at least from Andy to the DC. And, you know, these things happen. These are understandable facts. And, I mean, you know, the message I got was that Mick was interested in speaking with Alpharius and Tequila Sunset because there seemed to be a crisis of faith. And, you know, we’re here, we’re discussing things. And I’m sure that, you know, a lot of the questions that we did have are answered. Doesn’t mean that there’ll be there won’t be future questions, but I think this resolves several issues. There were no issues from my side. There were questions, but when Andy came, those explanations were enough for me. And so I’m quite satisfied. I don’t doubt the organization’s decisions at all, and I’m happy with whatever. Mick: Okay, is there anything else people wish to know from me? Tequila Sunset: So I was also very uncomfortable with the way that all of this has played out so far, not just with um… you know, so the way that this happened, right, is Tlacuache brought up the issue to you at the conference. Andy was very quickly dispatched to Dallas, and like within that week, Andy spoke to Jo and to Tlacuache. I asked Tlacuache what they spoke about, and it sounded like they were asking questions about like, why is this coming up? Asking questions about, like, me, and then Andy comes to Dallas and insinuates I’m a wrecker without actually having any answers to, like, any answers to, like, the questions that Alpharius and I had. Like, the whole process feels has felt up until this point, like, very, like, defensive, which doesn’t really, like, which, you know, I mentioned during the meeting with Andy that after all the stuff with Dan, like, my trust in the center has been dramatically damaged, and that certainly didn’t help. So, you know, I want to believe what you’re telling me, but I feel like I’d like to see something more concrete. In the video with Steff and [VA], for example, there’s like [VA] references like emails between the two of them. So if there’s like correspondence that happened between people that all the different characters that were involved in the situation that we could see. If you want to redact them, that’s fine. But like, anything that can sort of like- I don’t expect you to have it on hand right now, but if that’s something that we could see, that would, I think, help a lot. I want to believe everything that you’re telling me, but I’m not willing to go on just trust alone here. Mick: Yeah. Well, I’m not quite sure what we can do about that then. Because as I said, I wasn’t in the room, you certainly weren’t either. But I feel very confident I know what happened. Tequila Sunset: So I mean, I think what you can do about that is just like I said, if there’s correspondence like emails, if we could see those, that’d be great. Mick: Yeah. And somehow I would very strongly doubt such things exist, but certainly I can ask. But I would be- I would be shocked actually if there was that, that still existed. But, anyways. Alpharius. Alpharius: I finally found the emoticon. And, I guess to be very to be very clear, like, when I say, like, when I didn’t jive, it’s not so much even, like, the back and forth of, oh, it’s, you know, Alpharius and Tequila Sunset, and now it’s Alpharius and Tequila Sunset and company, and now it’s Alpharius and Tequila Sunset, and now it’s Alpharius and Tequila Sunset and different company. Like, that’s, that’s the nature of meetings. But it’s more so, like, you know, when it was originally brought to me, it was Alpharius and Tequila Sunset. And then I was told it was only Tequila Sunset, and, like, you know, there was, like, heavy heavy implication, of, like, you know, it would not only be only Tequila Sunset, but that the context of even, like, why we’re having this conversation is, like, you know, based on, like, a question of, like, loyalty. Right? And when I originally, you know, raised that and then raised it, with Andy, it was settled. Like, that’s what I specifically mean. That’s what I specifically mean. It’s, like, why I didn’t, jive with, like, that contextualization. It could be improper contextualization given, information involved. But, like, when I heard that, I had two thoughts. The first of which is, like, I feel like I deserve, you know, to have the conversation simply because of, like, you know, I’ve been-I’m not going to assume your age, Mick, but I’ve been probably here, like, almost a quarter, if not a sixth of Mick’s life here. And, you know, like, it it affected me. And two, that, like, you know, just the framing. The framing of how, like, I was originally told, in that context. And when it was eventually resettled, then it’s like, okay. But that’s what I mean. I’m not I’m not saying you, Mick, or you, Andy, like, you know, that it’s like because I know and I do somewhat appreciate that Mick of maintaining to our more structure of, like, communication because I know back in 2014, specifically, that it was a wild west. You could call anyone. There are benefits to that. There were also not benefits to that because it creates a, you know, a very improper channel structure. But that that’s what I specifically am meeting. Mick: So let me, let me speak to a couple of points here, and it’s always I think it’s always good to be direct. And so when I heard Tlacuache’s points at the at the conference, I became concerned about the situation in Dallas. You’ve recently had a transition to new leadership. That can be a source of instability. I’ve been around a long time, you’re right, I’m 68 years old. And I was in the predecessor organizations to Freedom Road. So I’ve been around for a minute. So, yeah, I became worried about when I heard what was going on there about the issue of Dan and about the issue of this old thing coming up, which yeah, I was extremely concerned, and what I said about it was a couple of things. Number one, we didn’t agree with your decision to expel Dan. And that said, nobody is gonna force Dan upon you. And that’s what I said, it was almost exact words I used, I actually used tend to use words fairly carefully. And then two is I was extremely puzzled about this thing from 2013, we’re now saying, kind of, kind of coming up. And so, yeah, it was concerning. And so I raised it in the SC. And, yes, we do wanna act swiftly. Your city is a very important one. No one there, by the way, is considered a wrecker, just to be real clear, I wouldn’t be, uh, I wouldn’t be on a phone conversation with people who I thought were wreckers or potential wreckers. I just wouldn’t. I have a number of labor people who’d like to meet with me this evening. Instead, I’m talking with you. So if you are wreckers, I would not be- I assure you I would be with the labor folks. So, anyway, so everybody here everybody here is respected, and that’s why you’re here. I’ve tried hard to address in actually a pretty direct way your concerns. Now I think you do have a choice to believe me or not. And there’s different ways you could probably look at it. What you think of my level of integrity, you can think about it like that. You can also think about it in terms of motivations, blah blah blah, you know, but there’s different ways of looking at it. One thing I have actually have no intention of doing though is violating the privacy of those involved. And the reason why is actually quite simple, because it would make it impossible for us to conduct investigations in the future and, uh, and whatever. And we do investigate when shit comes up, and we are swift and certain with action when things happen. I assure you. So, anyway, that’s the genesis of, uh, that’s the genesis of this, how we got to here from my perspective. So, anyway, comrade raised things, which they have a right to do. When I was in LA, I addressed them with what I understood to be the general line of the SC. And it was decided by the SC that I would be the one who meets with those concerned and explain this to you. I was the one, by the way, who asked to have the Dallas DO present for this because I thought it was actually important that the people who are in the direct line, chain of knowledge, chain of command, Andy and the Dallas DO, also be here for this. Because, again, we are really trying to do this whole channel thing where we don’t have leading people just sticking their nose into everything, you know? And it goes especially for me because I actually like to stick my nose places. So, anyway, I’m not doing it. And, you know, I’m trying to respect Andy, and I’m trying to respect the Dallas DO. And so, anyways and by implication, by the way, I’m respecting both of you and spending my time with you. So. Alpharius: At least for Florida. Because, again, I don’t want- I don’t want to be a carousel asking questions for answers that you’ve already given, whether I would find it satisfactory or not. Right? Like, a carousel only goes one way. And once you’ve been on it once, you know, second or third time’s not as interesting. And I do- I will be very direct in the same way. I do have more questions, but not regarding Florida. They are on different topics. But I do want to give- Mick: What would the topics be just out of curiosity? Alpharius: Some of those topics would consider, like Gregory Lucero, very directly, and his things. The other one would be, you know, because I wanna ask, just to make sure. Mick: Gregory Lucero was thrown out of the group. He was expelled. There was an accusation made, and when it was made, he was expelled. Almost immediately, actually. Alpharius: Because I know there were there were two incidents. There was the incident between him and one of his partners, and then there was the whole mess of his relationship between him and another former partner. And I specifically had questions as to, like, you know, like, the second time, he’s thrown out, but it’s the first time which makes it interesting as, like, like, I just wanted to know. Mick: Well, I can say how I remember it, and I have a pretty I have a pretty good memory of things. My memory of it is that there was one complaint that was brought forward. The complaint well, actually, I think it was, I think this is - I’m not sure of - but I think it was actually either while we were writing the policy or the policy already exists, the complaint was brought forward and acted on almost immediately. And there wasn’t, like, two investigations or something like that. There was the one that, when it came to me, when I saw it, it was, it was immediate, and it was that one. And that was, what did him in. Alpharius: K. So you said when the policy was being written or had already been written, because I know and perhaps I’m misremembering. I was at least introduced to the policy following my first congress in 2018. What was obviously, we had perhaps, like, you know, unwritten policies, kinda like 101s, don’t do fucked up shit type shit. But what, what kinda sparked the, like, making it the written policy as it exists now today? And because you’ve, you know, been here since the stars were first aligned and formed in the gaseous space, what was it before other than, you know, it’s what it is now, but now written? Mick: So I don’t recall the policy coming from, a particular incident other than the fact that the whole thing with Florida had loomed very large in our minds. And we also realized that, you know, we had… so again, we have a lot of young people. We have a lot of people partying and that kind of thing and lot of potentials for problems. And so I think the policy was a logical, uh, a logical thing to do. And it actually kinda put forward a very clear procedure on uh.. okay, I have an accusation. You get a complaint. The complaint is investigated. We’re not gonna trample on people’s privacy, we certainly are gonna make sure at least if there’s an accusation, the person was actually in the same city at the same time or something like that too. You know, it can’t be just see if people float, you know, or that’s something like that, you know? So I think it was a good thing. I don’t recall there being a particular I don’t recall there being a particular incident. I thought my memory of the Gregory Lucero thing is, again, the moment the complaint came forward, an accusation came forward and it seemed credible or seemed problematic, he was expelled. And that way, it was just really pretty simple. Alpharius: And you- Mick: He wasn’t- Alpharius: Any other- Mick: What’s that? Alpharius: And you don’t know of any other incident? Mick: No. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: I’m not, again, I’m just saying, I’m telling you what I what I how I remember it. You know? I certainly knew Gregory Lucero, you know? Alpharius: Didn’t we all. Well, thankfully, the people here don’t know Gregory Lucero, so you and I can reminisce on how shitty he was. And then, like, the other question, because I do wanna give consideration to time, but you did ask, like, what the question was. The SC solely voted on the question- to be a bit of a parliamentarian here because I do sometimes enjoy the stuff - the sole item was to either accept or reject our expulsion of Dan, right? That was the only thing decided. That was, like, that was the only item on the agenda in terms of the what the SC’s position was. Mick: No. Of course. Why would we, why- it’s not how we function. We certainly would have done that in the context of talking about the situation within the city, what information that we had. There would be a number of considerations. Yeah. So, no, we certainly did talk about whether or not that we agreed with the expulsion, and what we said is we thought no. We thought that it would be far better for him to take a break. He can be on leave, or you can say he’s suspended if you like. But we thought that would be a far better approach. And, again, as I told Tlacuache, nobody is gonna force him on you either. And so anyways, I don’t see, I don’t see the problem here, actually. Alpharius: Oh, it it’s because, like, very particularly, and I believe Andy raised this criticism to Tom specifically, that Tom had called myself and the DO. And, like, it wasn’t just- oh, hold on. Let me mute myself so I’m not… Sorry about that. Shit. Oh, yeah. That, like, it wasn’t just the item was rejected. It was that the item was rejected, and there’s, like, an expectation of struggling with Dan. He phrased it to Dallas DO one way. He phrased it to me another. But that was that’s the reasoning for the question of, like, you know, that was there, like, any other, like, thought of, you know, or was it just that item? And it was just that item, then, you know, like, it’s… I see the point. Mick: Of course, we’d never we’d never would consider things. No. It wouldn’t get to the agenda. It would never nothing would ever appear in our agenda like, do we accept or not accept a local expulsion? That would never appear in that context ever, with any. It would always come in the anything like that would always come in the context of talking about the situation. Hey. What’s going on here? What in general? What are the forces at work? Why might this be happening? You know? Alpharius: Yeah. Because again, most people wanna know, but it would be like, because I remember when Ada was expelled, again, like, this is somewhat getting off topic and, you know, you and I can reminisce, but this isn’t perhaps the best avenue or time or place of reminiscing. But those would be sort of, like, the lines of questioning that, like, I would have. But, again, I wanna I wanna specifically give the time, place, and manner that, like, you know, what is this conversation about? So, you know, that’s why, like, if it’s possible of, like, talking further later on, it’s fine. If it’s not, it’s also fine. If it’s not fine, it’s not fine. Mick: Well, Andy and the Dallas DO both have their hands up, so I’m going to call on them. But Andy first. Andy: I was just raising my hand because I had noticed that the Dallas DO had his hand up for a while and wanted to call attention to it. Alpharius: Oh, shit. That’s our fault. Mick: Oh, I’m sorry, Dallas DO. I missed you. Dallas DO: You’re fine. Mick: You can interrupt me too. I’m not gonna cry, by the way. Dallas DO: No, I don’t expect anybody to cry. But no. I was just you know, I think- I think most of the, I was gonna say that, yeah, I think our concerns regarding Florida are answered. I don’t want to super assume it, but I think they’re answered for the time being. You know, we were talking about certain cases like, you know, Gregory Lucero, I had one particular question regarding you know, Tom offhand mentioned, you know, kicking out certain people. There was a so, you know, a person in Seattle who was removed , “Mantak Singh”. And, you know, the explanation was that, you know, he was removed for disciplinary reasons, you know, behavior to women. I didn’t get a full answer nor did I ask. I don’t want to assume it’s a similar case to any of these previous cases. Could be its own thing. I was just curious. I’m not trying to connect dots here. And the second thing I wanted to ask, you know, you know, I mentioned the article yesterday. I don’t know if this conversation is, germane to hear or later, but, but, yeah, those were the two things. Mick: Tequila Sunset? Tequila Sunset: I think the Dallas DO was not speaking for everybody because I’m I’m still not satisfied. I think and I just wanna clarify whenever it comes to, correspondence. If you want to protect the privacy of the people involved, fair enough. I’d imagine you don’t really care about protecting [VA]’s privacy. And [VA]- Steff and [VA] alluded to emails between the two of them in that video. So at the very least, I’m aware of that one piece of correspondence. If there’s other correspondence with [VA], other correspondence with people that are surrounding the situation that maybe aren’t the people involved if there’s a privacy concern. I also would honestly ask if private conversations can be shared. And if they’re redacted or anything, that’s fine. Alpharius and I are the ones on this call, but we’re not the only ones concerned about this. I think, as you know, several people asked to be on this call, and are not. I don’t know if everybody is going to be satisfied by just going off of trust or faith like you’re asking us to do here. Mick: Well, unfortunately, I think you’re gonna have to. And I might take a look for that. I might ask stuff about emails. I strongly doubt that that would exist or I actually feel though absolutely certain they wouldn’t establish what happened in that room that night. That I’ll tell you a 100%. There there’s nothing in writing that does that. There’s nothing on film that does that. So, anyways, if that’s what you’re looking for is to, like, prove a negative that it didn’t happen, you’re never gonna get that. It doesn’t exist. Tequila Sunset: I’m not asking you to prove a negative. I’m asking you to, you know, show anything that sort of, like, that, like, corroborates the sort of- because, I mean, there’s a very, very harsh narrative of what happened, and, obviously, you can’t you can’t, like, disprove that narrative. Like, yeah, you can’t prove negative. I agree. But, like, you know, corroborating the narrative that you’re telling us, I think, would go a very long way. Mick: Well, you see well, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. I’m just being direct. There’s no there’s no way it can happen. How- how- what would I do? Tequila Sunset: Well, like I said, if there’s correspondence and if there’s I mean, you said- Mick: What do you what do you think the correspondence might show, comrade? Tequila Sunset: Something. I don’t know. Something. Hopefully something. Anything. More context- Mick: No. I assure you there is no correspondence that actually talks about what happened that evening. Tequila Sunset: I don’t need to know what happened that evening. I wanna know, like, just context surrounding the situation. That’s what- I- that’s what I’m hoping it’ll show me. I don’t know what information is in there- Mick: Like what? Tequila Sunset: I don’t know what information is in there. Mick: What would, well, give me an example of what this would look like, comrade. Tequila Sunset: I have no idea what information is in there, but, I mean, I’m- I’m hoping it’ll show something. Like, if there’s if there’s correspondence between [VA] and Steff where [VA] is very clearly, like, um… very clearly, like, I’m going to wreck FRSO or something, then that’s gonna - that’s useful. You know, things like that, that establish what’s going on. I don’t expect there to be like, you know, like a play by play of what happened in the room. But just, the more information that we can pick through, the better. Mick: Well, I don’t think, I don’t think, and this isn’t for me to answer. I feel very confident, however, that we are not going to relitigate this case in Texas. So that’s not gonna happen. You’re not gonna carry out your own investigation there with me assisting you. Tequila Sunset: Understood. Mick: That’s not how this works. That’s not how a democratic centralist group works. It’s not- this isn’t reasonable. And I think you know that too. Alpharius: I know that Dallas DO had asked about Mantak Singh. So I’ll I guess I’ll just ask, like, very directly. Do you know anything of that situation if you don’t know you don’t know? Mick: I’m sorry, comrade. I don’t know of what you speak. Alpharius: That’s fine. Dallas DO: That’s totally fine, comrade. That’s okay. Alpharius: Go ahead. I’m just tired. Mick: Could someone clarify to me what Mantak Singh is? Dallas DO: I mean, he was, he was a student, he’s a student organizer in Seattle. Mick: Oh, alright. Yeah. Okay. Alpharius: There’s- Dallas DO: You wanna go, or should I? Alpharius: I was going to go if that’s okay. Dallas DO: Okay. Go ahead. Alpharius: This is my context. So he was a comrade, very, the positive way would say outgoing, the negative way would be, like, very arrogantly braggadocious. I had met him in the student comm of ‘23. And in that student comm specifically, and I think this is sort of why the DO hass brought it up. And if not, you know, then I’ll just bring it up as my own point that when I had raised the issue of what my comrades had brought to me of just like: Hey, you know, there was criticism of this comrade for, like, how he was behaving in general and slightly behaved towards women. I had thought that, like, oh, let me inform the center contact that I know of, like, there is this situation. That conversation, in my opinion, was not handled too well. That just, you know the main thing was just struggling with Mantak Singh and that, you know, there would be no specific, like, involvement in regards to that, situation. And that apparently, time has went on and then the situation didn’t improve. And that, in the context that when Tom had called the DO that, he had said that there was this, comrade who, he thought he was very promising, and he said, well, you know “young men and women”, and that, apparently, there had been a lot of issues related to male chauvinism that directly not only affected organizing in there, but also just the issues of how it even affects the internal organization. But that, it was a student comrade, now not a comrade because they’re kicked out, related to, like, their behavior and that when it was first raised, it potentially was not handled the best way. But that is at least my context. The DO can also give their own context because they don’t wanna just speak on them. Mick: But would you think- do you think an injustice was done here, or what’s, what’s the issue? I mean, I believe that the person in question, I didn’t recognize the name because I certainly not a level of detail I get to, but I certainly am kind of in general aware of what’s going on. I mean, I believe the person was asked to leave. Alpharius: Was asked to leave? Not expelled? Mick: We often, we often do not expel people. We often, say that, there’s more general- I don’t know. They probably could have been expelled too. I just don’t know. Alpharius: Okay. Mick: But, you know, I certainly, just to say as a general policy, if somebody hasn’t worked out, would prefer to have them just leave as opposed to expel them. Alpharius: Right. And when- go ahead. Mick: The reason for that is, you know, we have a very large organization at this point. And we actually wanna minimize people who are being expelled. So we have people who, if there’s conduct, you know, poor behavior, yeah, they might have to go. We say they have to we ask them to leave, you know. The first result is- the first go to is not expulsion. We do we do expel people too, though. You know? Alpharius: And then when you’re asking me of, like, you know, do I think an injustice or injustice was done- Mick: To him. Alpharius: Go ahead. Mick: I asked you, was there an injustice done to him? Alpharius: Oh, to him? Yeah. No. Not to him. I think that it should have been dealt with more. But, like, not that, like, oh, actually, he was, anything accused against him was wrong. No. It’s even from my brief experiences and other comrades who experienced him in SDS 2023. Yes. 2023 that, you know, he perhaps the best way to frame is, like, similar to Dustin Ponder in terms of, like, being a social character. But that’s- that’s all that I had to say of Mantak Singh. But, no, I don’t- I don’t think an injustice was done to him at all. Mick: Yeah. He was a problematic person, and we got rid of him. You know? And I believe fairly swiftly too. Alpharius: Mhmm. Dallas DO: Well, I just had some curiosity regarding that. I had no, like, feelings of that there was a you know, he was done wrong or anything. I was just told that he was kicked out because of some misogynistic reasons or whatever. People brought up complaints against him or whatever. Can happen. Mick: I mean, that’s my memory that’s my memory of it too. I mean, it’s again, we have a large organization where we make a lot of decisions on issues concerning discipline. So certainly not like I’m looking at a note of all of them. Mhmm. Dallas DO: Mhmm. If there’s are there other items? Alpharius: For me, no. And, also, I do want to eat because I had a long shift today. If I could keep talking to Mick, I would, but I don’t have the energy to do so. Mick: Alright. Well, I’ll- I’ll- I’ll just say from my perspective, I’m so certainly open to talking to you more, Alpharius. But that’s a decision that actually the SC would have to make if that’s something you want to happen. Again, I consider everyone on this call a valuable person. Some of you I know better than others. And, but the thing I thing I will not, uh, not do is uh, and I’m just saying this unequivocally, I mean, I’ll- I’ll ask Steff about emails, but I- I- I feel actually, Tequila Sunset, I- I would bet my car, so to speak. There’s not gonna be anything there that’s gonna, uh, um, relieve any, uh, that you’re gonna find there that’s gonna make you, again, that’s gonna be a smoking gun that proves what I’m saying. Those are mixed metaphors, but there’s just not anything on paper like that, or in a physical form, video or whatnot. So it’s just, that’s just- that’s just not gonna happen. So, anyways, yeah, it looks like you have a nice cat there, however. And mine is- mine is hiding because I’m talking in a harsh voice. So, anyway. Alpharius: Tequila Sunset has two cats, actually. Mick: I did too until one of mine. Alpharius: Yeah. Mick: Passed away. So never mind. Alpharius: Yeah. It’s always… at least it to my recollection, it, it was natural passing. One of my dogs, it was, not so much natural, unless you consider a car natural. Mick: Well, sadly, my cat, involved a car, but I think, the lost of my cat, but it jumped out the window of a moving car. And, anyways, that’s another story. But, anyways, is there more? Or, otherwise, I think probably we should at least consider retiring for the evening. Dallas DO: Yeah. If you wanna talk about the article here, we can talk about it here or I can call you later. Mick: Yeah. We can talk actually, why don’t we talk about it on the phone because Andy needs to stay on this because he’s like a host or something here. And it’s not fair to keep him here all night, Dallas DO, when we can just we can just talk about we can talk about articles. You know? Dallas DO: Sure. Sounds good. Mick: Is that alright? Dallas DO: That’s perfectly fine. Alpharius: Sorry to hear about your cat, Mick. Mick: Oh, it happened, like, a year ago, and I’m looking around for a kitten to replace it. So, anyways, cats, you miss them, but you also can get others, and they can fill that void perhaps. So, anyway alright. So we’ll call it a night and whatever. Again, everyone here is respected, and I’m glad, um, glad we did this. I suspect not everyone is satisfied, but, uh, alas, there’s- there’s, I think there’s probably not much more I can do. So. Alpharius: Good night. Mick: Alright, so good night all? Dallas DO: Good night, comrade. Andy: Take care. Tequila Sunset: Thanks for talking to us. Mick: Alright. Take care, my friends.

Dallas DO: Take care.

Alpharius: Bye.